On large team Lisp projects, you don't have every individual person arbitrarily invent their own idiosyncratic abstractions. The project as a whole has a common set of abstractions that fit the domain, which are designed and modified the way you would design the abstractions regardless of the language and programming paradigm you're using. Macros are a language tool that lets you build abstractions, in some cases imo allowing better abstractions than would be possible without macros, most often ones simulated somewhat clunkily with OO features (or something godawful like C++ template metaprogramming). But if you have a large team project you still need an actually functioning team, common abstractions, project management, documentation, code review, the usual stuff. Successful large Lisp projects of course do all that.
I don't see a meaningful difference here between Lisp and, say, C++. If you have a dysfunctional team writing C++, full of cowboy programmers who invent their own idiosyncratic abstractions without coordinating with anyone, the fact that C++ doesn't have proper macros doesn't really meaningfully limit the resulting damage. What stops it from happening in functional teams isn't that C++ the language prevents it from happening, but that the team has some kind of working process that allows them to successfully write code as a team.
> Macros are a language tool that lets you build abstractions, in some cases imo allowing better abstractions than would be possible without macros
I guess 'better' is the operative word I question here. You're creating syntax that no-one has seen before. How is that a good thing? Meanwhile in languages like Python, with syntax built-in, people build large apps without ever doing this, making their code far more understandable for the next person that touches it.
> I don't see a meaningful difference here between Lisp and, say, C++.
Agree :) (joke)
> If you have a dysfunctional team writing C++, full of cowboy programmers
At no point am I suggesting we can save ourselves from cowboys ...
> What stops it from happening in functional teams isn't that [...] the language prevents it from happening, but that the team has some kind of working process that allows them to successfully write code as a team.
But people are arguing 'the whole point' of lisps is that you can be free to do this, and that this justifies the 'paren-crazy', syntax-less language trade-off, and I'm yet to see any justification it's necessary to allow this at all.
What I'm saying is that all the lispy parens give you are footguns and all you're saying is that good teams don't use those guns. Well then why give them the guns at all. Why not give them a language with decent syntax instead.
> in languages like Python, with syntax built-in, people build large apps without ever doing this, making their code far more understandable for the next person that touches it.
No. Lack of macros makes code bigger, more error prone and harder to understand.
When I use something like cl-ppcre:do-register-groups, this one word hides all the loop orginization, and underlines meaning of local variables which are bound to regex groups.
Or cl-sql:select, which allows programmer to use SQL syntax as part of lisp while hiding special chars escaping, converting numbers to strings, ensuring sql-syntax is correct.
Or simplier example: gl:with-primitives, which hides glBegin(...); ... glEnd(). Note, it not just hides, it makes impossible to forget glEnd.
Macros makes life easier. Otherwise no one would use it. Macros such a convinient way to make an abstractions, that switching from Lisp to any other language becomes a great pain. One start to see tons of boilerplate code, which needs to be written by hands, checked for errors with eyes, which hides logic somewhere inside of boilerplate... It becomes better with practice, but nevertheless lisp nostalgia will last forever.
> No. Lack of macros makes code bigger, more error prone and harder to understand.
I mean, that's provably not true. Or at least not provably true. Let's me throw out at alternative statement: Macros make code harder to understand.
> When I use something like cl-ppcre:do-register-groups, this one word hides all the loop orginization
You don't need a lisp to hide things.
> Or cl-sql:select, which allows programmer to use SQL syntax as part of lisp
Eugh, why would I want SQL interspersed with my lisp.
> [...] gl:with-primitives, which hides glBegin(...); [...] Note, it not just hides, it makes impossible to forget glEnd.
Python has 'with' statements and 'context managers' that do this (make sure some cleanup happens). [1]
> Macros makes life easier [...] such a convinient way to make an abstractions
They might make life easier for the person writing them in the short term. And I can see how when you find a really solid case for a macro and document it well, open source it etc, it can be broadly useful, but then why not add that case to the damn language. Instead you open the floodgates to everyone in your team writing macros that aren't widely understood.
> Otherwise no one would use it.
A lot of people avoid them like the plague in all other languages.
> but nevertheless lisp nostalgia will last forever.
So python's got a with statement. What of it didn't? Well then, you're screwed. Hope you like calling file.close().
If lisp didn't have a with statement, you could add one yourself. And if scheme didn't have a with statement... well, you could always add one, but before dynamic-wind got added, it could break if you weren't careful. Some things you can't just patch in. Anyways, now you'll say, "but python does have a with statement!" But that was just an example: there are things python will never have that you can add to lisp yourself. Like multimethod dispatch and generics, anaphoric operators, lazy module loading, pattern matching, ADTs, regex literals (with readtables), non-deterministic operators (the classic amb/assert operators, for concisely expressing searching a list (although they're admittedly more toys than anything else)), and a full-on looping construct that allows for awk-style record processing of arbitrarily typed records from arbitrary sources (field splitting is handled by other functions). And that's just a few examples I came across. There are dozens of others.
That would never all be added to the language: there's way too much, and it's too specialized.
As for your theory that macros make code harder to understand, you don't have any proof. In fact, you have negative proof, as there's plenty of logic, good programming practice, and individual cases indicating that careful use of macros can make code easier to understand.
> But that was just an example: there are things python will never have that you can add to lisp yourself.
I don't want to. I want a language that has sensible norms.
> As for your theory that macros make code harder to understand, you don't have any proof. In fact, you have negative proof,
Do I?
> as there's plenty of logic,
What logic? Show me. I simply don't believe you, as it's not provable.
> good programming practice
Still not proof. I believe the opposite, that it's not good programming practice to use macros.
> and individual cases indicating that careful use of macros can make code easier to understand.
So anecdotal evidence, not proof.
You have no more proof than I have. My personal experience is that in most mainstream languages, the most common arguments are over invention of frameworks/libs vs using existing ones, and those devs certainly would not be happy having macros thrown in the mix.
Lisp has sensible norms: Unlike you, however, we acknowledge that what may be a sensible norm for one situation isn't for another.
As for it not being good programming practice to use macros, it isn't good practice to use them excessively. However, they can be used to make your code much clearer. Here's the reasoning (no, it's not proof, you're right on that front, but it's better than what you've got, which is just your opinion, AFAICT):
The larger a codebase grows, the more likely it becomes to contain bugs. The most common way to decrease the size of the codebase is to abstract away common idioms, only express them in one place, and reference that from other parts of your program. This is what functions and objects do. However, some idioms are incapable of being expressed as functions or objects. These idioms must be repeated over and over again, and often result in insidious bugs when somebody gets them subtly wrong. Macros allow you to capture those idioms and express them once, eliminating bugs. They also make the code easier to understand, by abstracting away complex logic.
So, if you really think macros are bad, than what's wrong with that line of thinking?
Again, in your opinion. And sorry to start blunt because I'm trying to round this out as we're getting nowhere :)
To me, writing my code like it's an AST, amid a ton of parens is not sensible. I've happily not done so in many other languages for over a decade, and I'm very happy with that state of affairs (or at least I'm relatively happy with the modern incarnations of C-style langs, e.g. Rust, Crystal, ES6, and I would be very unhappy if I had to chuck that in tomorrow and write lisp).
Generally agree with your train of thought on abstractions, and see how you arrive at macros. But my take is that it's simply not a good idea to go as far as macros, especially when the syntax sacrifice is so great. If the language is truly missing something, take it up with the language authors.
(I've never encountered a situation in > 6 years of writing Python where I encountered something I could not do and needed macros for).
Again, my basic opinion is I see it as a trade-off, and one that I don't agree with. I think many others feel the same way if they get as far as understanding the purported benefits of homoiconicity. But most aren't willing to argue it on Hacker News and get downvoted to high hell (which is why I used a throwaway).
(I should note meanwhile in another thread someone wrote off the entire JS community as 'full of self-righteous assholes' [0] and got upvoted to top post).
Thanks for the discussion, it was an interesting experiment in arguing these thoughts I've had for a long time, as an 'abandoned' Clojure-curious dev. I'm a bit sad I didn't get any new answers, but appreciate the insight all the same.
No, what he's saying is that a good team knows when to use the guns, and how to aim them. A good OO team knows how to layer their types, how to relate them, and when to stop. A good asm team knows how to handle nonlocal jumps, when to use them and when not to. Every paradigm has its guns. You're just paying extra attention to the lisp ones.
> You're just paying extra attention to the lisp ones.
Because people in this thread are attempting to put-forward lisps' macros (and writing code as an AST) as some big win, without acknowledging that it comes with a massive cost. Lisp-y, inexpressive, paren-soup syntax. I'm saying myself (and presumably many others else lisps would be more popular) don't buy the trade-off.
If you like it, and your team like it then great. But don't act like it's definitely win-win, and people who choose not to use lisps just haven't achieved enlightenment yet.
I never said you haven't acheived enlightenment...
But Lisp's syntax is actually pretty expressive and nice, once you get used to it, IMHO. You continually deny this, and while you're free to disagree (many do), you continually argue that the mine and other's opinions are Bad and Wrong. I find this frustrating.
This feels like it's fallen back into a more boring criticism: you just don't like Lisp's syntax. Ok, fine, everyone has a criticism about every other programming language's syntax. Maybe I hate Python's mandatory indentation. These kinds of criticisms are not really the most interesting ones though.
I don't think you can put those things on the same scale. I think it's telling that you dismiss Lisp's syntax like it's unimportant rather than acknowledging that it's the several hundred lb elephant in the room whenever it comes to talking about lisps.
What I'm arguing is that Lispers say that all the parens and lack of other, more expressive constructs are worth it because you get macros. I'm arguing that's a bad trade-off, because 1. that's a big sacrifice, 2. macros aren't a win.
I don't see a meaningful difference here between Lisp and, say, C++. If you have a dysfunctional team writing C++, full of cowboy programmers who invent their own idiosyncratic abstractions without coordinating with anyone, the fact that C++ doesn't have proper macros doesn't really meaningfully limit the resulting damage. What stops it from happening in functional teams isn't that C++ the language prevents it from happening, but that the team has some kind of working process that allows them to successfully write code as a team.