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I'm always extremely skeptical when someone suggests that oral traditions could possibly have survived for long periods of time. That's twelve hundred generations! Given what we know about the speed at which Chinese Whispers tend to drift, the idea that any story can last 1200 generations is an extraordinary claim that demands extraordinary proof.

Hundreds of Aboriginal tribes had hundreds of contradictory myths on hundreds of subjects. Most of them are verifiably false (e.g. those rocks over there are not, in fact, the remains of three young women who got turned into stone for disobeying their father). Some of them are probably correct by complete accident.

As for gigantic animals... well, they're a pretty common motif in myths and stories all around the world. Maybe it's some distant memory our cultures all have of the larger animals that used to live around here... or maybe it's just because giant animals are cool. In Aboriginal myths, giant animals are often really really giant, because they're used as explanations for geographic features -- e.g. rivers are caused by the meanderings of a giant snake.


I wouldn't take it as 'extremely skeptical', it's fact that this is junk 'science'

We can look at story drift even in non primitive societies where they have writing and it's huge within generations.


Some tribes in north of Australia have verifiable myths about the geography of the lands that have been under the sea off the north of Australia for 6-8 thousand years at least (meaning, the description of the land features matches the sea floor geography).


Has anyone quantified their myths properly? If not then they're just cherry picking.


Do you have any proof that they are just cherry picking?


No, I just assume they are until they provide data to prove otherwise. We don't even know if the same tribes were in the same area that long ago.


And although now we've pushed literacy up from 80% to 90-something percent, I wonder whether literacy is actually lower than it was in the 1850s. More people are literate, but those who are literate are on average less literate, because we've pushed our educational standards down in an effort to pick up those last 20%.


Unless the statistical distribution of alleles is exactly the same (unlikely) from one generation to the next then humans would have to be evolving, wouldn't they?


Genetic drift is not usually considered 'evolving' because the variants are selectively neutral. That's why finding selected variants isn't as simple as 'SNP X is 0.00001% more common in generation 2 than generation 1, case closed!' - you are looking for variants which are becoming more/less frequent than would be plausible under simple drift. Just like an experiment where you know the effect will never be exactly 0 because of chance imbalances and random noise.


They don't want fairness either, they want "fairness".

The difference between fairness and "fairness" is that "fairness" works out a little better for people like yourself than fairness does.


> "fairness" works out a little better for people like yourself than fairness does.

Because the CEO of a company fairly worked 100-300 times harder than the person on the packing line?


Maybe gp worked really hard on that comment; should you really criticize it?


What is the benefit of preserving rarely-spoken languages?


This account has posted too many trollish comments for it to be a coincidence, so I've banned it until we get a commitment from you to follow the site guidelines meticulously from now on. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com if you intend to use the site that way.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15197488 and marked it off-topic.


It is not a rare language as it is spoken by more than 72 million people[1]

Yet, there are languages that are in decline, because the population has dispersed or has been assimilated into other cultures. Some have less than 100 speakers, some are extinct. These languages are not just only tools for communication. They have evolved along with their speakers and thus reflect their culture and history.

Just as examining the DNA of a species can shed light on where it originated from, its habitat, challenges it evolved against and so on, so can the morphological analysis of the language text and word etymologies, enable one to map out invasions and associations with different cultures, periods of famine and plenty, the important aspects of the culture etc. For example, Eskimos have numerous words for snow because their lives depend on nowing the nuances of different types of snow and adapting to it. The movement of people in Central Asia, thousands of years ago, can be deduced from the tree of languages that have branched out from the original settlers. I will try to add references soon.

Languages are a part of history, a part of human culture, a part of us. Death of a language is death of a civilization, a way of life (though the people themselves may live on). Preserving the vestiges of a dying language is a noble act in service of the human civilization, future and past.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telugu_language

Edit:fixed typo


I apologize if I misunderstood your post, but I feel as though you still did not answer the parent's question. (And I'm aware Telugu is not a dead language, but I ask following questions in general)

What is the tangible benefit (in excess of the time investment) of dead languages?

And this may be a little naive but, it is nice to preserve human history in its original format, but how can that help the average person?


It's often said [0] that every language is conducive to a unique worldview - in my personal experience, I see the world very differently in Polish than I do in English. Yet even if that worldview perspective may be intangible (i.e. hard to prove), the simple cultural value of each language is tremendous. Losing a language is like burning the Mona Lisa - along with every photo, copy, or file of her ever made.

[0]: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/opinion/sunday/why-sav...


Your personal experiences are probably swamped by the fact that individuals have different personalities when speaking in different languages, due to the experiences that they've had speaking those languages. For example, it's not uncommon at all for an immigrant to have a very confident and assertive personality in their native language, compared to their personality when speaking the language of the country they live in. I know some people who are like this.

When I speak other languages I tend to be more serious. Perhaps this is because I was very serious when I was studying them? (Perhaps causation goes the other way?)


Even if this wiki citation was in error by an order of magnitude, 74.2 million native speakers[1] can hardly be considered rarely-spoken.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telugu_language


Telugu is spoken by at least 74 million people in India. It ranks third in the list of mother tongues spoken in India. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of... for more information.


And in fact it's the 15th most-spoken language worldwide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of...


According to wikipedia, Telugu has more native speakers than French, Italian, Tagalog, or Dutch, to name a few.


With ~75 million Native speakers, it is not that rarely spoken.


What makes you think Telugu is a rarely-spoken language?


The context of the post above certainly making it sounds like Telugu was a dying, rarely-spoken language. If you, like myself, knew nothing about Telugu except the suggestion that it needed preserving, then you'd probably have assumed that too. This brings up the question of why (or whether) Telugu does need preserving if it's so active.


I am a native speaker of Telugu and working to grow digital knowledge resources in the language. So, I am also a Telugu Wikipedian. I would like to present few insights of Telugu speaking world. Telugu, like some other Indian languages, has a lot of colonial influence, especially in the fields of education and knowledge sharing. Telugu Native speakers learn Engineering and Medicine only in English Medium. No college offers a course of Medicine in Telugu, this is true with other Technical, Higher education courses. Majority of Telugu Native speakers educate from their middle or primary school in English Medium. This resulted in a negative phenomenon where you can find virtually no knowledge source about some Scientific and Advanced fields in Telugu. Many Language activists are worried that current generation and upcoming generations are brought up in an environment where they can speak Telugu and can be a doctorate holder but couldn't literally read and write in their native language. But as the language is spoken by millions 74.2 million native speakers, Entertainment (Telugu Film industry is so popular in India), News & Media, Literature, History and some other such fields persist to produce Fiction & Non-fiction works and knowledge base in Telugu. But as I mentioned above, A Scientist, who is a Telugu Native speaker won't publish his works in Telugu and unfortunately, that work even didn't get translated generally into Telugu. Telugu Wikipedia, as a free knowledge collaborative project, helps language in improving one of its biggest knowledge repositories and partly trying to fill this specific gap. I don't know if this context represented well in this article, but this is the context of the story.


I don't know how common this phenomenon is in India, but anecdotally, most of the Tamil people I know who graduated from college can barely read and write Tamil. They have no problems speaking it, but they'd struggle to write an essay in Tamil, let alone a thesis. No such problems in English, obviously.

You often hear the concern that regional languages could disappear because most parents would prefer that their kid studied in an English medium school.


Thanks for this information!


sounds like you guys don't want anything preserved. Questioning both the preservation of dying and popular languages.

The whole point of wikipedia is to preserve everything. Especially since people who speak the language are clearly underserved online.


It sounds to me like they may not see the value in preserving languages (not "anything"), whether widely spoken or not.

I don't see much value in maintaining the regular, daily use of any particular language, but I see tremendous value in preserving the written works (and nowadays spoken audio) of every language. It provides informative data to anyone seeking to understand language, history, and culture, today and in the future.

For the same reason, I support preserving all source code, even from discontinued or unfinished or shitty software. I have no idea what types of analysis might be possible in 500 years, but I don't want to deny them the opportunity to try it.


You misread me: I passed no judgement value on whether it should be preserved I just asked whether it needed preserving.


What's the harm?


Of a guy writing wiki articles? Nothing. It's a pretty valid question in general though as people do receive grant money for language preservation projects I'm pretty sure.


Hey HN, can you not downvote people for asking questions? Seeking knowledge (assuming good faith here) is something to reward, not punish.


I agree with the sentiment, but in this case the reply inserted "rarely-spoken" with a question of preservation. Not only that, but the addition made it predictable that "nobody does that anymore, why remember it?" would get a negative reaction.


Dravidian languages - Tamil, Telugu , Malayalam, Kannada & sub Dravidian languages still spoken by tribes came into existence in advanced civilisations when still majority of the world where inside caves.


But my dogecoins are still headed for the moon, right?



I really should find my wallet and make myself the 50 cents richer as a result of heating my apartment one winter using my video cards...


I always though it would be funny to offer people free radiators that were just hot mining rigs.


A Dutch startup is hosting servers in people's homes for heating. https://www.nerdalize.com/heating/


Very expensive radiators, a little problem to overcome.


Not that many internal combustion powered cars you can buy nowadays without touch screens and the like, either.

Maybe not Tesla-level yet, but in five years I'd be surprised if most new cars weren't filled with screens in the place of traditional instruments.


That's true, but we still have old ICE powered cars for the moment, not really the case for EVs


Latino cultures already control all but two of the thirty-something nations of the Americas, do we really feel like they're under threat?


Sure, as long as we can have a white Shaft.

Seriously though, Britishness (in the genetic sense) is a fundamental part of James Bond's character. He isn't just British by citizenship, he's emblematic of Britain.


There's no such thing as 'Britishness in the genetic sense'.

Idris Elbra is as British as they come.


I disagree.

Firstly, maybe in the 60s, the idea of a black person being "British" would be scoffed at; today, with 3 or 4 generations of genetics here() and black people representing Britain at many levels, I don't think it would be a problem for most.

Secondly, 007 has always been an outsider and not a member of the Establishment - that's part of why he does things differently to the other 00s (although another commenter says that's not part of the books, only the films - I've not read them so can't say).

() ignoring the fact that there have been significant African populations in cities such as Liverpool and Bristol since Elizabethan times


And North America is about revering and being one with nature, respecting and worshiping Wakan Tanka.

Things change, evolve and adapt, both for good and bad. Idris Elba would be great.


Not sure where to even start with this comment.


So was Star Wars. But it turns out it's more profitable as the latter.


I'm pretty sure Bond has grossed a lot more than Star Wars. I wonder how profitable Star Wars will be after the 24th installment. I'm guessing not very.


You'd be wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films...

Imagine how much further ahead Star Wars will be after the 24th installment


> The films in the cross-franchise Marvel Cinematic Universe have collectively grossed the most, amassing over $12 billion at the box office, although the Eon James Bond films have earned over $14 billion in total when adjusted to current prices

I'm not even sure Star Wars is in the top 3.

And I think interest will wane after the current crop of movies being ~12 let alone 24. Its all character exploitation at this point, and there aren't many left who's lives haven't been explored yet.


Star Wars was art and had integrity. Unfortunately selling Jar Jar Binks dolls is more "profitable". The Bond franchise is art and has integrity, let's hope it can keep it.


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